How NOT to hire an artist
[edit] WOW! Absolutely unbelievable level of response to this. Thanks SO much everybody. BTW, I’m @jonjones on Twitter. :) [/edit]
I was browsing Reddit earlier today, as is my morning routine, and I came across an article called How to hire an artist. This article has been widely panned and criticized by artists and people with the capacity to think, and rightly so. The more I read it, the more it irks me, and I wanted to issue a point-by-point response.
How to find an artist:
I recommend looking through art sites such as Deviantart for an artist which suits your taste, or any other site that has a decent art community such as Newgrounds. There’s a few reasons you want to find an artist this way. First of all, they’re cheaper. These guys aren’t used to making a lot of money for their work so they will be more appreciative of the chance even if they are being payed slightly less than what professionals are payed.
That’s a bit misleading. I know many extremely high-rent, talented and quite expensive professionals that host their work on DeviantArt and these other sites. Just because they’re on this site doesn’t mean that they’re automatically cheaper. There’s going to be a wide spread of artists at all skill levels and price points.
Second, stating openly that going cheap is the top priority when looking for an artist is dumb. Art is NOT a commodity. Matching the artist to the task is important. If I’m contracting out creation of the game’s main character, I pay more for a better artist to do it because more eyes will be on that asset for longer, and it’ll be scrutinized very closely by players.
But if I’m looking for basic background props like crates and barrels, I tend to look for lower-cost volume vendors. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for, and learning how best to allocate your resources to achieve your project’s development goals is important.
Sometimes budgets are limited and you need to hire inexpensive artists. Nothing wrong with that. But in my experience, the world isn’t divided into “cheap, inexperienced artist” vs “expensive, talented artist.” Every contract is different and every artist is different. People are motivated by different things, and if your financial means are limited, you can still do a lot if you can find what it is they actually care about that you can offer them. I’ve gotten to work with extremely top-shelf artists on low budgets because:
- I can offer a steady volume of work over time that I can commit to contractually,
- We negotiate a specific number of revisions in the contract, and pay for all revisions above that number. This is SHOCKINGLY uncommon, and I’ve gotten unbelievable price breaks on this because it essentially removes the bulk of the risk to the artist. Getting stuck in infinite revisions and never being paid sucks, and showing up-front that YOU understand THEIR concern and THEIR risks and genuinely want to be fair goes a long way.
This also forces you to assign a specific dollar cost to changing your mind on anything later, and will encourage you to get better at planning and making good decisions. - I can negotiate their name in the credits. Sadly, this is also very uncommon. This isn’t a straw man, either — I genuinely do have to fight with my own company\client to negotiate for this.
- I can offer them an opportunity to work on a type of game or with an art style they like but never get a chance to work with. I’ve gotten some awesome results from this. A lot of successful high-end artists sometimes get stuck on projects they don’t like and long for something different and fun, and being able to let them go totally nuts on something they can be passionate about and feel ownership over is enormously compelling.
Honestly, a predatory sort of tone comes through in the article that I really don’t like. I understand what he’s intending to say, but for god’s sake, you have to learn how to talk about it carefully. I’ve fallen into this same trap before with an old article of mine. You should be more mindful.
Second of all, they’re better. The quality of art you can find through this method is pretty amazing, and the vast amount of artists guarantee you will find something that suits your tastes and needs. Unless you have a specific price you want to pay in mind, ask THEM what they are willing to charge for the project. This usually causes people to give offers that are lower than what you normally pay, and will make them happy.
I don’t know why he thinks that cheaper, apparently inexperienced artists are going to be inherently better than seasoned professionals. I do agree that you can find diamonds in the rough and great talent rather easily on sites like that around which artists congregate, however.
The last half is actually a common negotiation technique: Whoever gives the first number loses. If you intentionally seek out inexperienced artists not familiar with negotiation and lead them into that trap, then sure, you’ll probably get lower prices. That doesn’t make it any less of a dick thing to do!
If I’m working with young and inexperienced artists, I prefer to be fair, be open, and try to teach them the ropes (within reason) as we go. If I’m in a position to help educate them on the job to become better and more effective artists, that benefits both of us and, in a broader sense, the industry as a whole.
I like working with smart, experienced people, and if I can do my small part to help people learn to be more effective professionals, I’ll gladly do it. Every young artist I shepherd along is going to be a better artist for his next client, and so on. We’re all in this together… and I’m not a fan of milking the informational advantage I have over the artists just to save a few bucks.
The obvious downside of this, though, is what if that artist figures out you’re screwing him? All he has to do is talk to another artist. Losing an artist in the middle of a contract or a project sucks! If you approach the beginning of the contract with openness and mutual respect, you’re more likely to retain that artist for the long term, which benefits you and your project enormously.
Think long-term and don’t get caught in the trappings of short-term sacrificial gains… it always pays off to play it straight and honest.
How NOT to find an artist:
Do not look for either professional artists, or an artist that has done a lot of game design work in the past.
This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. Don’t hire experienced professionals? This guy must not value his time at ALL.
I think of it this way: I’d rather pay 20% more for a professional that’ll deliver exactly what I want the way I want it THE FIRST TIME because he knows how to make game-ready assets, than to spend VAST amounts of my time managing and tweaking an inexperienced artist’s work because he doesn’t know how to develop usable game art and I have to teach them as I go. I’ve been caught in this trap before and I hate it. This piece of advice is bad for artists AND managers.
The problem with artists who do this as their full time job is that they’re usually expensive. Compared to what you can find through art sites, these guys tend to cost an arm and a leg.
Did it occur to you that they might be expensive for a reason? (hint: It’s because they know what they’re doing and will save you time on endless revisions and novice mistakes. Everything costs.)
Artists who have done a lot of game design work are also bad for a similar reason, they know how much flash games can earn so they expect a decent percentage of the profit.
I’ve been involved in managing dozens of projects of all kinds, including Flash-based games, and I’ve never had a single artist ever ask me for percentage of the game’s profit. Nor would I ever consider offering it.
Most intelligent artists see “I’ll pay you a percentage!” as code for “I am cheap, this game will never launch and I will waste your time but act as though you are my slave because of Massive Future Profits!”
This is another side effect of working only with inexperienced artists: They’re naive enough to think that’s actually a good deal! Most smart, professional, effective artists are strictly work-for-hire because they’ve made that mistake in the past.
There are certainly exceptions to this. I’ll be the first to admit that my experience is PC and console-heavy, and less Flash-based games. But the general principle here still holds true.
Artist payment:
Make it clear to whomever you hire that they will not be payed until ALL the work is completed, unless it is completed by a predefined date, and unless it matches or exceeds expectations.
There are no hard-and-fast rules about artist payment. In general, yes, payment is received when the work is completed. Specifying a due date for the work is a given. Meeting or exceeding expectations is also, naturally, expected and specced out clearly in the contract beforehand. However, for example, what if it’s a multi-month project?
In my experience, artists going longer than three weeks without some money or payment will disappear and never speak to you again. If you’re asking an artist to do an enormous amount of work for which he’ll be paid only at the end, he’ll likely never start or be slow at it.
My favorite way to structure a contract is to divide all the work up into discrete work units that the artist can invoice for every two weeks as long as the work comes in on time and is approved. That way, it’s essentially a steady bi-weekly paycheck. I’ve experimented with all kinds of different contract lengths and payment schedules, and two weeks is the sweet spot. It keeps motivation up tremendously, and I always push hard for that payment schedule.
Finally, don’t forget that, as a manager, the artist is taking a risk by working with you if you’re a new client. Artists get screwed all the time. If you can understand that and meet them in the middle and show that you’re honest, trustworthy and understand their concerns, they’ll be easier to work with and you won’t have to worry nearly as much about artist turnover.
The assumption that an artist should be grateful to be so honored as to be paid to work in the presence of your magnificence is insulting and demeaning. I’d like artists to want to work with me on my project. I’m not special just because I have money.
We’re all people, here. Fair pay for fair labor. One of my cardinal rules is NEVER to enter a deal that isn’t equitable for both parties. If I only have $X to spend and the artist wants $X + 20%, I try to find a way to streamline, simplify or otherwise adjust the scope of the work to make the cost make sense.
If we still can’t come to an agreement, I thank them for the time, and move on to try to find another artist. Often I’ll ask for a referral from the artist to someone that may be better-suited for the work. See, I want to establish long-term positive working relationships, and entering a deal where one side has vastly more upside than another is not kosher to me.
I’m not out to get as much as I can out of somebody, I’m out for each of us to feel we’re getting a fair deal and to have a long-term, positive working relationship. This benefits everybody. Artists get stability, I get great art at the right price and on schedule, and neither of us have to deal with the drama of replacing each other. Nobody likes churn.
Paying prior to the completion of the project is a bad idea for several reasons. Only paying for the finished work encourages the artist to finish their job faster, if you pay up front the artist has no motivation to finish quickly. Similarly, if you pay up front the artist could disappear and you may never get what you payed for!
This is HYSTERICAL to me. Have you considered that you have problems with artist turnover because 1) You hire only inexperienced, naive people you disrespect and underpay, and 2) You’re a really crappy manager that they want to escape from as quickly as they can?
This is a self-created problem. I have never had problems with artist turnover because I don’t treat them like ignorant slaves. There is a lesson to be learned here!
Keep them in the dark:
This relates back to what I talked about earlier. If an artist knows how much their artwork will increase the value of the game they will then feel they deserve that amount of money. This is not how a market economy works, you hire whoever is able to do the best job for the lowest amount of money, anything else is a loss of money on your end.
This is so deeply misinformed and ignorant that I’m actually offended by it.
One of the biggest driving forces behind an artist’s passion and motivation is the amount of pride and ownership he feels in his work. I remember that, having started in games as an artist, and I try to give that to the artists I work with.
Whenever possible, I explain to them the context of how important their work is to the game. I send them screenshots and news articles. I tell them what other parts of the game it’s influenced, I tell them how much the rest of the team loves their work, and I try to give them as much of a sense of ownership as I’m able to with the parts of the game they touch.
I’ve seen artists’ work transformed from merely average to truly excellent because they finally see the results of their hard work and the context in which it will be seen by players.
I’m passionate about the projects I’m working on and I try my ASS off to sell that and show other people why I’m so into it and why they could be, too, but I have to give them legitimate reasons for feeling that way. I go out of my way to try to foster a sense of them being on a team and being an important part of the project because THEY ARE!
Contract artists do not feel entitled to share in the profits on the games they work on. It is widely understood to be a simple work-for-hire arrangement. They get paid for their work, and then they move on when their part is done. Only an inexperienced amateur would even be irked about sharing profits and trying to seek it out later. Once again, this is another self-created problem from this article’s author. This is truly dumb and painful to read.
Timelines:
Give strict dates about when you need the art done (even if you don’t) and give consequences by deduction in pay if the art is not completed by the date. Unless the person you’ve hired happens to be very punctual, you will need strong motivation to make sure they finish the art in a timely manner. Try to only hire people ages 18+ (I may sound a little hypocritical here), kids are generally less reliable and have more IRL things come up that they can’t control. I’ve had several bad experiences with this.
Setting due dates is, of course, a given. Deducting pay, however, is a completely dickbag move, and I would never consider doing that to an artist. What if it’s YOUR fault as a manager that the art is late?
No intelligent artist would willingly choose to put his earnings at risk because you’re clearly incompetent and may change your mind or create more work for him on a whim. I’d never do that myself and I’d never ask someone to do it. Just because you’re in a stronger negotiation position by being the man with the money doesn’t mean you need to be such a dick to people.
If an artist completely blows a date, use the termination clause in the contract to end the contract and pay him for the work completed up to the date of termination, and then don’t issue any further contracts. Then find a new artist.
Artists either succeed or don’t, and I’ve NEVER successfully motivated an artist to be awesome through the use of threats. Even if it worked, I wouldn’t want to.
And hell, man, if you’re concerned about giving them motivation to finish in a timely manner, see my notes above on how to encourage an artist to care about your project and make him feel involved. Not all artists are motivated solely by money, or by threats of withholding pay.
You, sir, are a terrible client and encourage everything I despise. I hope you change your ways and start treating artists better. However, now that your article has been this well-publicized, I’d be surprised if you can find a competent artist willing to work with you. And rightly so.
For shame.
There are 193 Comments to "How NOT to hire an artist"
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That is a fantastic article, and very informative. By breaking down the ways not to treat an artist I think that the product is that much stronger. Maybe the result of that unfortunate article won’t be so bad, since it has brought this problem to light and initiated in-depth responses from individuals such as you. Thanks for sharing!
Hi Ian,
I want to do this commercially and I do intend to put my own money into it, but I’m not at all willing at this point to put any money into it that isn’t my own. The limited budget no doubt reduces the pool of artists available to me, but if I can find an artist who knows the going rates but is willing to accommodate my budget then my conscience will be clear.
Like I said, I’m saving up some money and am working on a commercial project of my own so I can make some extra money and then make an offer to an indie artist that the artist doesn’t find insulting. Not that I’m in a big hurry, as I want to have a working game in place before I even approach an artist for contract work.
Thanks for making a rebuttal more eloquent than I ever could have. That article really rubbed me the wrong way, but being inexperienced, it was much harder to articulate exactly why. You are awesome, and you give me hope in my future as an artist. :D
Jon,
Thanks very much for this post, I thoroughly enjoyed your insights in the rebuttal (and continuing insights in your follow-up comments.)
I very much agree that age, lack of experience, and an expectation of relative obscurity are no excuse for the incredibly sleazy and wrongheaded advice published in the original article. You kind of have to wonder about people who post things to public blogs on a worldwide network designed for the rapid dissemination of information and are subsequently surprised when the things they write are seen by the whole world.
You’re really doing this kid (and everyone who he does business with in the future,) a favor by shutting him down so eloquently. With any luck he’ll grow into being a more careful, caring manager of talent because of your words of wisdom. Conversely, maybe the stigma created by the universally negative backlash to his article and your follow-up will cause him to remove himself and his deeply flawed business practices from the talent pool altogether, which I honestly regard as a good result as well.
I’m a designer/programmer currently working freelance on a couple of game projects. My clients have treated me with respect, honesty, and courtesy. They’ve done their best to get me as invested in their projects as they are themselves. When I eventually start my own projects and begin looking for talent to help me out, I hope to be as professional in my dealings as my clients have been with me. This sort of thing gets paid forward.
I do have a question, though – do you have any stories of encounters with shady clients from your earlier working days?
I was just linked about to this, from DeviantArt. Wow, this article is about as offensive as it gets to an artist. As a nonprofessional artist I have a hard enough time getting people to understand the time and cost involved in actually putting something together, and to have someone blatantly try to undermine the entire art community.
His short term thinking probably doesn’t account for the fact that the people he’s buying art from, aren’t going to buy his game if they don’t have the money for it. Whole economy is shot, because of this short term thinking.
I can’t tell you how refreshing it is was to read this after having read that other article. You have an excellent attitude and I’m sure your artists appreciate being treated like reasonable human beings!
You. I love you.
The kid is only 16. He’ll eventually see learn from his practices and be able to make better decisions.
Great input on all this teenager wrote up, Jon.
I cannot even begin to thank you for this article.
As an unknown artist lost in the jumble on DeviantArt, also rather inexperienced to the world of work-for-hire, the original article was insulting and offensive in it’s “advice” on what amounts to “How to screw over an artist.”
Thank you for your rebuttal. It gives me hope that there are people out there who appreciate the work and effort artists produce and provide, and that what we do IS work and is no less deserving of appropriate compensation, consideration, and respect.
You are the client I always wanted to have and never had. Please continue writing such awesome blog articles, you got my hopes up again to work in the game industry C:
I really really hope I get to work under someone like you in the future.
As an artist I read both articles and the first one honestly shocked me, I know there are some downright dishonest individuals out there who think nothing of taking advantage of artists, but that is the first time I’ve seen such a blatant case of someone basically advocating such parasitic tactics.
Reading your counterpost however Jon Jones was an honest breath of fresh air. Your respect for artists and passion for creating a good working relationship is clear and much appreciated by this artist.
You are the type of boss I would feel privileged to work for indeed. Artist’s don’t need nurturing as one commenter suggested but we do need to have clients who understand how art works and who are willing to work with us rather than trying to exploit us as some would do.
As for your question about what it would take to motivate me to work on a low to no pay indie project?
Well generally I don’t take no pay projects on unless they’re for charity or there is an equal non-monetary pay off involved somehow or they’re something I’m majorly interested in and want to take part in. The last no pay job someone tried to talk me into doing was an “awesome new table top rpg”. The would be client flipped out and harassed me for several weeks because I asked for a contract because he was asking to borrow half my gallery for and wanted 50 drawings on top of that. Later on I found out that his table top RPG was pretty much stolen whole sale from various editions of dungeons and dragons.
So I’m wary of no pay projects because it tends to bring out the worst sorts. I will only consider one if people aren’t trying to either flim flam me or pull the “I’ll pay you in exposure” stuff that some people try; generally an upfront explanation will at least result in me at least looking at the proposal, anything less than honesty or if the person wanting it tries to say it pays in exposure and I’ll turn it down quicker than a polar bear would turn down an refrigerator at the north pole.
Low pay however? Hmmm, same rules for broaching it as for broaching a no pay, no flim flam, no “payment” in exposure, up front honesty and I’ll look it over and consider doing it. It would have to be something interesting headed up by someone who was trustworthy, upfront and willing to work with me to create something we could both be proud of.
Oh and a definite part of the contract if I decided to accept no or low pay would include the details of my pay not being disclosed to other parties, since I’d rather not have others show up expecting the same rate because “you did it for him for free/less”.
Yeesh man, your fallacies are showing. Don’t get me wrong, the first article had ‘em too, but good gosh, have some pride.
For what it’s worth you have most excellent points (and quite some experience backing you, it seems) but I can’t say I’m much for your position. Sure, the author made a darn fine folly by publishing his strategy (and on the ‘net for greater foolishness), but that does not make it a bad point. He’s being thrifty and resourseful. And despite the error of wording his article in a monor which outright offends the -er- “honest” artist, the very basic (if not crude) ways of capitalism adressed are quite clear and really aren’t worth the thousands of hollow and pointless flames he has recieved. Personally, I prefer the teachings of Marx (and find this affair somewhat amusing) but this is a generally capitalist society so it is befuddling to see one who openly seeks oportunity put down so swiftly. Thriftiness, out-of-the-box methods, and a good taste for risk are not entirely bad concepts, and I don’t see why (beyond the trodded-upon artists’ silly outrage and call to flame) so much effort is put into sabotaging such ways.
Also, when you said “art isn’t a commodity”, it sure isn’t. When it’s for employment though, it’s a business and must endure the slop and filth any other business must. In no way is art (for pay) unique from any other industry, and should never get special exemptions from capitalism’s blunders. The art industry and it’s employees is not picked on/taken advantage of any more than the other careers out there. But that’s a minor quibble.
If you so choose to respond (kudos if you read all that), I will gladly read the words of one more literate and experienced than I.
Thanks for this….there were several articles on deviantart about this and none of them really convinced me that it was a horrible thing what he was doing….but reading it from an experienced person’s point of view, it actually sickens me….
I’ve never been paid for my work in real money before, but now i think i’m a little more ready for it when it happens ^^
hopefully i won’t get ripped off by a total douchebag like him.
thanks once again, and keep doing what you’re doing ^^
I’m gonna go link my 16 watchers to this article now lol
Oh, and I was going to answer your new question in the 84th comment: While I’m not an artist, I’d take a job for low or even no pay. Work is work and in tough times that’s good enough for me. I’ll do a good job even for meager pay.
If it’s for free I’ll carry natural anthropological stipulations when doing such a task and expect something other than pay in return. Maybe the employer will mention my name to others, maybe he’ll hire me again with pay next time, or maybe something else. Whatever the case, I scratch his back…
http://news.deviantart.com/article/125498/ this article was in the news and linked to http://kaitol.com/how-to-hire-an-artist/ and amongst the billions of comments was a link to this article (which I much enjoyed btw) by someone called Dee. That’s how I found it.
I do believe that I love your for this article :) <3<3<3
I read the article in question and was kind of hurt that someone would play around with someone else just to save some money. You get what you pay for. Being an artist myself I would never want to be treated like that. I would feel like I have gotten myself into something that I will only regret later.
Money is not my only motivation. Knowing that my work is useful and going somewhere is motivation enough for me. I would rather be part of the team than “some artist” that was found.
Hey. I’m a game developer (and my art sucks), so I’m probably a bit biased towards the game developer’s side, I’ll admit.
I don’t really see what the drama is. A lot of people probably complain about this guy, but they read PUA articles that tell them to do the same thing (and worse) with women. If you don’t like the way he does business, just do business with someone else. As a programmer I often have to do the same thing.
When I do business, I try to be fair. Being fair doesn’t mean letting someone walk all over you either. If people don’t like the way that I do business, or if I don’t like the way someone else does business, then I cancel. It is hard to trust people online, so don’t like my money to leave my hands unless I have something, even if it means paying half for a half-finished job, then paying the rest later.
Money is important is this world, like it or not. People are going to be exploited (something I try not to do, and something that i try to make sure doesn’t happen to me), and exploitation is relative. Some people are happy to work for pennies, while others can’t make a living off of it and would feel as if they are being exploited. That’s why there’s outsourcing to India.
Perhaps I touched on more topics than I needed to. I’m not *actually* posting because Chris can’t take criticism. That’s hardly even a concern. I’m irritated because:
“1) You hire only inexperienced, naive people you disrespect and underpay, and 2) You’re a really crappy manager that they want to escape from as quickly as they can”
Yields:
“You sir, are made of such pure awesome that I think my eyes hurt.”
I’m happy to reinforce my points in the face of your counterpoints, but that’s not what I’m most concerned with. Using a 16 year old who is a hot topic, and currently being roasted, as a scapegoat kind of bothers me. Publishing an ad hominem article without studying this person at all is irksome. Subsequently being hailed as if you were an incarnation of Christ newly descended from the heavens is infuriating.
Chris treats artists just fine. Really. He isn’t paying for creativity; in most instances, he’s paying for very, VERY basic graphics, which he uses for very, VERY small projects. Five minutes on his website would tell you that. His misconceptions aside, you fail to address that you made myriad claims about his personal practices, when you had NO IDEA what context they were in.
“Preying on naive amateurs” implies that he himself is not a naive amateur. That would not appear to be the case to me. It would, however, appear that many experienced professionals have torn his business asunder. That appears to be “preying on naive amateurs”. That appears to be what’s happening here.
I’d appreciate it if you addressed these concerns. As accusatory as I may sound, I’m still not entirely certain what to make of this.
When I read that article, I was very offended. Not only is it terribly written, but the points in it are just.. bad. And being an artist myself, I was even more offended by it.
I agree with this article though. It has very valid points. The way it’s written, and what it’s about, makes it sound like that kid is somebody who doesn’t deserve business with any artist, “cheap” or not. Thank you for making this rebuttal.
Now that my work is good enough that I get a job offer every once in a while, I am often seeing how people just blatantly look down on artists. Every other offer I get has the classic bait, “I can’t pay/can’t pay much, but you’ll get to see your art in a video game!” How old do they think I am? It’s like offering to hang a child’s drawing on the refrigerator. If your game is something I’d really want to help with regardless of pay, you wouldn’t need to patronize me with such a cheap reel-in.
I really don’t get why there’s such a strong belief in the non-artist world that we love to do work for anyone! Regardless of pay! It’s like being an artist and being well-paid is a black-and-white difference that we decided to choose from. It’s not so much that I’m getting a bad job offer. I understand that people want to pay as little as possible. But I am already tired of this belief that artists are especially okay with it. I guess it’s the romantic idea of a talented starving artist working against us.
Excellent.
Well said. Personally, I always hope to be hired for the fact that I DON’T have the most experience, but that every job (web design) I do teaches me more.
Taer:
I’ve got to say, the viewpoint you’re presenting seems rather warped, even just in evaluating the situation. I understand your emotional attachment and that you’re standing up for a friend, but you’ve at least got to consider his actions and those affected, as well as what he represents.
Chris is not a scapegoat, that implies that the negative response that’s occurring is unwarranted. It isn’t, his initial post is disrespectful to an entire profession, insulting to the individuals within it and promotes exploitation.
He had the opportunity when he updated the post to defuse the situation. Instead, he gave an insincere apology, denied personal responsibility (it’s the systems fault) for his beliefs/actions and proceeded to once again justify unethical actions. He escalated the situation and the response escalated in return.
It is, perhaps, unfair that he has received as much attention as he has. He has effectively become the representative of these unethical practices. He’s even had a number of them come to his defense. By his own words, he has proclaimed himself one of them. Not once, but twice. Even if you now say he, “treats artists just fine,” there’s no reason to believe that is true. And further to that, the justifications you give (not creativity, etc) and concern with context, simply, do not matter. The practices are predatory, whenever, or however they are enacted.
As has been mentioned by many, including Jon Jones, there are a myriad of ways to accomplish what’s needed as described by the conditions through compromise and working together. As opposed to not even perceiving them as people (who also have conditions they are under). And that’s part of why Jon is receiving praise… If you’re treated and perceived as sub-human, as valueless slave labor, if you’re constantly under the yoke of negative pressure… well, it gives hope. And hope is something rather powerful. It’s something you want to support with your entire being, because it is in essence it’s entirety.
As for preying on amateurs… I’m having trouble even comprehending the logic of that paragraph, honestly. He is the root cause of this turmoil, not anyone else. If his business suffers, it’s a response to his actions… his responsibility. Professionals speaking out against those practices are protecting/defending themselves, their industry, their peers/colleges, the people they work with and the people they may work with in the future. He and those like him, are the aggressors, the ones causing harm by their actions. Expecting them to stay silent, to not try and inform others so they don’t fall into such traps, is unreasonable.
I’ll not be surprised if such a response don’t satisfy you, that’s natural and you seem to care for him and for the situation. So, I’ll add, this doesn’t need to be something that ends negatively for him. He missed one chance already, but there are others. If he can accept the knowledge he’s been given, take it as education and grow from it, he’ll be better off than when this started. He’ll more than likely, be more successful in the long-term as well if he does. People are more often than not, willing to give others second chances and to support them if they want to change for the better (and that’s something you can help him with too). All he needs to do is take responsibility, get back up, make amends and prove himself.
It’s one of the most difficult things to do, certainly, but it’s also the easiest… the alternative is just a downward spiral.
Be well.
Thanks for a great read. I’d let you hire me any day. :)
Thanks for writing this. =)
Thanks so much for this.
As an artist beggining to profit off my works, I´m glad there are people who still cherish the value of doing things right.
You make this guy sound like he develops games for the iPhone.
What a relief to see that there are in fact designers & art directors who give professional credit to illustrators and the field of illustration! The Kaitol Flash guy is the kind of client from hell that every self-respecting pro artist tries to avoid at all costs.
These responses are overwhelming. Wow. In fact, I’m saving these into a file to cheer me up if I ever get bummed out. :) Thank you all.
#105 Malcolm:
Yes, actually. I’m an art outsourcing manager as a contractor, and one of my first clients had an absurd request. They asked that I take all my best artists and convince them to do an extremely complicated fulltime month-long art test. At the end of the test, they would pick which artist (if any) they liked the best, at which point they MIGHT pay one (and only one) about 1/4 the going rate for that type of work.
Oh, and none of them can know anyone else is doing it. Also, I’m only paid as a percentage of the one asset that’s paid out, so I would essentially get paid for three days’ work when I’ve done thirty. The client saw nothing wrong with this, and did not understand why I quit. I won’t work with people like that, and I won’t put my artists in that position. Life’s too short. :)
#109 Isaiah Sherman:
Age isn’t an excuse for disrespecting and mistreating people. It’s not hard to rise above your age, and playing with the big boys and taking lumps when you deserve it like a man is a fast way to grow up. He did a poor job presenting himself and said a lot of truly odious things, and the fastest way to learn is to take the abuse, learn humility, and grow.
That being said, I didn’t know he was 16 when I wrote the article. But he is not unique in the way he feels, as I’ve seen that from MANY adults as well. I still stand by what I wrote as a general statement against clients of that type. It needed to be said.
I’m not beating up on a kid, I’m beating up on a deeply flawed set of misconceptions about dealing with artists. This time, the person spouting this all-too-common trash happened to be a teenager.
TheEcholnside
At least Taer was able to see one (and there are plenty more) of the massive odius fallacies slapped up there! That’s only a minor distraction though.
Now (since it seems those swift to yelp praise are the more common peon here) Jon’s article is in no way wrong. Despite being riddled with fat sloppy errors, it is an admirable article, and it may inspire the average artist much like a Union Boss inspires his leauges for a bright and better tomorrow. But the first article was far from bieng in the wrong either, as I mentioned in my first comment. Do you honestly think if “artist” was replaced by another profession (such as fieldhand, pizza maker, McDonald’s employee, Walmart worker) it would have raised such a riot?
But it seems my point (and plain reality) is mute. Let ye high and mighty ‘artist’ have your juvenile little cheer. A cipher mood and your uncanny ability to unite in flame may indeed help ease the sting of truth!
A really great rebuttal. Thank you for writing this so eloquently. The original article, while it made good points from the “other” side’s view, was just poorly written and was more condescending and predatory than anything. Anyone who would agree with his perception of artists and their worth really has no regard or appreciation for hard working, talented artists whether they are experienced or amateur.
#111 Laura Kjoge:
Thank you!! :)
#112 Dawn:
Thank you! That’s *exactly* what I’m going for. :)
#113 DonMiro:
Wow, fancy college word! Care to name some of these fallacies for me, specifically?
You’re a bold man to take a stand against treating people with respect. :)
Capitalism doesn’t require being a manipulative dick. I believe there’s a moral component to it, and I’d argue that stripping that out and seeking only aggressive short-term gains is BAD capitalism.
Isn’t a long-term, sustainable growth model and investing retaining your people for the goal of being more efficient and more profitable for the longer term?
Isn’t that smarter and more capitalistically sound than burning everyone out and wasting time bringing new people on, training them, and being in a perpetually inefficient state of ramping up new people?
There’s a difference between seeking opportunity and seeking a model of exploitation. See my points above. Just because there’s a sufficiently large labor market to absorb the blow of perpetual turnover doesn’t morally justify it.
Again, see my points above. My argument is that it is a MUCH better, more profitable and sustainable business model than cutting corners and seeking constant exploitation at any cost. I believe an organization’s value lay in its people and their ability to work together efficiently, learn that business’s processes and constantly seek smarter, better ways of developing product together. If you can’t hang on to your people, you’re sacrificing the team dynamic that makes so many companies so successful. It’s just not smart.
I honestly have no idea what your overall point is with your post. It’s muddled, difficult to read, half-baked and poorly explained. To be honest, it sounds like you’re in high school or college and just learning about concepts like capitalism and Marxism and enjoy bandying the terms about without an understanding of what they actually mean or how they apply to the real world.
#120 Taer:
What he said struck a chord with many artists (and myself) who have encountered people with the beliefs Chris seemed to espouse dozens if not hundreds of times. A lot of the attacks have directed at him personally, but I’d bet you anything that the real source of the frustration lay in the philosophy and set of ideas masquerading as “hey, it’s just capitalism, d00d” that has damaged and affected peoples’ livelihoods.
I talk to artists ALL the time, and there are so many people that are terrible clients like this out there, everywhere. Chris is just unfortunate in that he came out and openly spoke what everyone assumes that type of person is thinking, so he became the target of years of pent-up rage from thousands of artists and he became a symbol of their hatred. That sucks, and I do feel sorry for him for the ridiculous amount of rage he’s earned. I hope he can learn from this.
I really just view this as a conflict of ideas, not between individuals. For YEARS I have written, worked and fought to promote artists and help them develop self-respect and self-esteem, to educate themselves, to avoid being taken advantage of and to be the best boss\manager I can be to artists. This isn’t just some one-off opportunistic rant from me… check my blog, publications and history speaking at conferences.
It’s my driving passion in life because I think it’s the *right* thing to do and the *right* way to be, and yes, I have nothing but vitriol for people that abuse artists. We CAN all get along, but some people make that difficult. And I’ll take every opportunity I can get to speak out against that and make it as inhumanly difficult as possible for them to continue taking advantage of artists.
Again, it’s unfortunate that Chris may be a decent human being and is taking such a beating from this. He just happened to blunder into a MASSIVE untapped well of pent-up rage. Unfortunately, it sounds like he’s been completely unrepentant, unapologetic and stubborn and hasn’t tried to explain himself, so it’s only going to get worse for him. I can’t be held responsible for that. Sorry. :P
I’ve started a thread on the Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards asking for feedback on the matter of working with artists on an indie budget without exploiting the artists’ naivete or desperation.
Here’s a link to the thread, which is titled “on the ethical treatment of artists”:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?p=229909
Jon,
As an illustrator who has a few professional credits under my belt, let me just say that I find your manner and methodology in working with us artists refreshing and truly fantastic. I hope that not only does ‘xdragonx’ take the time to learn from your post, but so do other AD’s, PM’s and CD’s who regularly deal with and employ freelance illustrators. I, too, would be honored to work with someone with your obvious high regard and moral stature.
To my fellow artists, illustrators and animators: read this and learn it well. THIS is how business should be conducted.
This is made of such a win, this site can barely contain it.
Congrats, good person. You’ve just won. ^^
In my opinion, saying exploitation is “capitalism” uses half a theory to fuel a whole argument. Exploitation in certain cases is entirely economically sound.
Those of whom argue that exploitation is morally wrong will get immediately ignored because of an inherent belief that business need not and often should not be conducted with ethics at the forefront.
My goal here is to establish a situation and form a reason using economic theory which proves that ethical treatment can be fiscally beneficial. The division is between commodity and non-commodity ventures – in the former, it is beneficial to be “exploitative,” but in the latter, it is better to be “ethical.”
Begin with the definition of “commodity:” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity
Given this, the value of a commodity should not change no matter who provides it. Wheat is wheat is wheat – some is better and some is worse, but at it’s core, it’s wheat. We eat it, and as long as it serves this base need, we do not care.
Thus, commodities are relatively inelastic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_%28economics%29
If the price of wheat goes up – since WheatA and WheatB still serve the same function for the end user, you might as well buy whatever is cheaper.
The best example for “commodity art” would be tracing a logo the client gives an artist, for turning it from a raster to a vector graphic. The artist has little creative input. The only requirement is they possess a certain, beginner-level, technical knowledge. So, the client in this case should shop around and find the best price he can. An inexpensive student is probably the best option in this case.
Let’s say WheatC gives you magic powers (like laser eyes) – which is cool, and you want that. Thus, you are willing to pay more for it. Suddenly, this wheat is no longer a commodity because only WheatC Company can provide it. Your shop around choices have been limited.
Certain art can lend a final product added value, after which, it is no longer a commodity. Maybe you want your three-dimensional, console video game to be gorgeous so that it gets noticed among a lot of similar games or wins a graphics award, you will probably have to shell out and hire experienced/educated artists. However, most artists work who at that level have invested a lot of time in their work and will thus cost a lot of money (or stock shares, or founder’s rights, or pizza and beer etc). But your priority is that you want your game to be breathtakingly beautiful, so you should find the guy who does the best 3D work, even if he costs a lot.
Yeah, guys, sorry about that – more “college words.”
By the by, checked out your “About” page – a friend of mine started at Ready at Dawn about a year ago, haha!
Bookmarked for future reference, just because there’s so much Good Business Sense and People Skills included within. THANK you!
@36 Tær:
His age is irrelevant. First, there are pleanty of smart, ethical 16 year olds. To use his age as an excuse insults them. Second, he posted as if he was an expert in the matter. If he’s going to pretend at being a professional (self labeled “CEO at PortalStrike Productions”) dispensing his wisdom to the masses online and at conferences (he had a panel at Triangle Game Conference called “Monetizing Your Flash Game”), he’s must accept the consequences. Also doesn’t help bragging about how much he (allegedly) makes off his games.
His age may explain (but not excuse) his initial ignorance, but then he made matters worse. Had he apologized and explained he meant it from the view of a small bedroom run flash “company” it might have died down. But instead he excused is as capitalism and “everyone does it”.
Red herring, either or, appeal to authority, post hoc, part to whole, whole to part, and a couple of points seem to lean very close to poisoning the well. Would you like me to hold your hand and point out where they are too? (Here’s a hint; there’s a subtle ad hominem in your introduction) And it’s not a college term any more, the son of Josh McDowell teaches the mishaps of fallacies to his freshmen and junior classes. That’s minor tangent though.
Maybe I did not phrase my words well (and my sincerest apologies for such) or maybe I hold thriftiness and resourcefulness to high to see how offensive the original article was but I am in no way for mistreating people.
As I said, you made excellent points about the professionals in the art industry (nothing wrong with informing people) and you have admirable business practices, I’m not against those at all.
I am against the seeming need to exact such high standards (and great amount of flames) upon the employer who chooses a different path. More so am I for those bold enough to take risk. He is free to make his own mistake and hire an incompitant artist just as another is free to overpay for a professional. I don’t see that as manipulative. Morals, unfortunately, are a red herring here.
“My argument is that it is a MUCH better, more profitable and sustainable business model than cutting corners and seeking constant exploitation at any cost.” Why yes, all the points in your article (and those in your comment as well) could indeed reap great benefits, I don’t doubt it. Just because those can work for you does not automatically mean other strategies won’t (hope you found the hint there) succeed, nor does it guaruntee your practices are better. It’s not about cutting corners or seeking exploitation (from how I read it at least, feel free to disagree) so much as it seeking a new, cost effective avenue. It may prove a successful gamble, it may not. While it may seem like a dick move to those trodded upon by foul words, if the strategy works it’s worth pursuing. That’s the employer’s choice, and fortune or folly will be the consequence for him to reap alone.
I only mention capitalism because I have had many people start a rant about said belief and completely ignore anything I said. I must thank you for not doing just such. As for that last minor quibble I had about the art profession, I must acknowlege it was an error on my behalf. I had been reading the words from several of my artistically inclined freinds and many of them went out of their way to say the profession was being taken advantage of. For the most part, the tone made it seem like art was to be treated above other professions. So I felt inclined to address the issue; it had nothing to do with with your article or the first and for that I must apologize.
As for your opinion of my comment as a whole (which seems like an insult and a herring but I’ll ignore that), I’m sorry you found it hard to read. I’m not as literate as you, if you can excuse that.
If you really want a reason why I comment (and risk being harshly put down) it’s because I ran into a very similar discussion. You see, some time ago I was discussing uncannily similar business practices with a Mr. Shakeel (of Western Digital) and found myself defending the hard working but replacable young employee (not dislike myself back then) as Mr. Shakeel implied they were to be treated like sheep. Despite mentioning morals and sucessful strategies that nearly mirrored a number of your own excellent arguements, I was easily thwarted by Mr. Shakeel’s experience as well as that of other recognized employers and my father’s own agreement with the thrifty practice. As such I later came to agree with such a resourceful practice (and made it a strong point to work harder so I would not so easily be treated like a stock animal) and the benefits it could yeild. Others have found the same conclusion, and yes, the could easily be abused but with moderation, thriftiness and resourcefullness isn’t bad. I’m not saying these practices will make people feel better but they can be successful.
Ever read “Ways of Seeing” by Berger?
I really love this post. It’s one of those things I can save in my bookmarks for days when I need a reminder that not everyone in the gamedev industry is hellbent on a quest to crush my spirit. heh.
you are very right, when u said, Artists need appreciation and to see how their work plays part.
being a designer money is not everything a the end of the day , felling your contribution and to do something worthy of you portfolio is also as important.
thankyou for great article
@DonMiro
Debate tip: I’m no big-city lawyer, but generally when you accuse someone’s argument of containing logical fallacies you need to back said accusation with specific examples of said fallacies, rather than just rattling off a list of well-known types of fallacies.
Also, nobody’s arguing that short-term, cost-cutting measures such as being stingy with artist compensation aren’t beneficial for the employers, at least in the short term. The argument being made is that it is MORE beneficial, both for the employer and the industry culture as a whole, for all parties to treat each other with courtesy and respect. The artist gets fair compensation, the employer gets a good reputation and better work.
Plus, I’m not sure that choosing to under-pay an inexperienced artist really constitutes a “bold risk”, but maybe that’s just me. And I don’t think that the fact that you lost an argument about the subject at hand one time means that there isn’t a good argument to be made for it.
An excellent rebuttal. The original article was clearly written by someone with an extremely shoddy concept of what business is, let alone how to run one. He might as well have entitled his blog “How to Ruin a Business Relationship.”
I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he would have sabotaged his own efforts sooner or later anyway. Writing the article just means he beat himself to the punch.
Everyone in any business knows that business relationships matter – it’s so often about WHO YOU KNOW, and you make your own reputation there as well as anywhere else. For a young industry such as gaming though, good contacts and rep are even more important.
I like to think it doesn’t matter whether he heads for the hills or not – so many artists have seen his article by now (and hopefully this one too) that he’ll probably find it a lot harder to screw people over next time.
DonMiro:
I don’t see your comments being worth the time to respond to, honestly.
I will say though, I find the reference to Western Digital rather amusing. My main profession used to be IT and I still do some contract work. Guess which company me and my peers in that industry consider to be in an accelerating decline and whose products we no longer use. The long-term in action. =)
Nice. IMHO, I would also like to say to everyone, Take an Art Marketing Class! It is a real eye opener into how the business works. Sadly many students and up and coming amatuers are never given this much needed business education that we need to actually make a living from these skills we have. And of course getting into a good professional organization like the Graphic Artists Guild helps alot too.
http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/
–Onni
I’m still pretty new to the whole commissioning scene…I read the article that started this whole debate and wasn’t sure what to think about putting myself out there for commissions. Thank you, Mr. Jones, for shedding light on what GOOD business practices are like–your insight taught me a lot :)
~Zene
Johnny #73, Is it a coincidence you cannot spell paid either (payed) as could not the poster of the offending article? Or do you just wish to demonise artist’s again while hiding your identity?
I have worked with many galleries over 25 years as a professional Visual Artist. Never has a gallery demanded I produce work to a schedule.
As a whole-time professional visual artist I work > 60 hours a week, 52 weeks a year.
To suggest an artist sits back on their laurels rather than work just shows your lack of knowledge.
[quote]Artists, in and of themselves are lazy. Not all, but a great majority.[/quote]
Many artists work two jobs to survive, any who are living from their work work hard all day every day. Calling artists lazy is disingenuous and ill informed.
It is also a fact that a body of work may take a varied length of time.
Galleries know this. Professional Galleries don’t organise a show without knowing the work is ready, or at least enough works to show.
As an Artist I don’t accept a show until I have the work ready to show, or can guarantee it will be ready. And yes, I paint what I wish to paint, that is why I am called a visual artist, not a graphic artist, so do novellists and poets write what they want, they are not journalists paid to write on set subjects.
My Professional Galleries also know that I have a certain amount of ‘stock’ or paintings available in my studio between shows which are available if wanted, they come and see what I have and collect those of them they want to show, or think they can sell quickly if they have a collector waiting.
In general business terms Galleries don’t pay upfront, they sell on consignment, taking a commission on sales much like an auction house.
Your post seems to show a distinct lack of knowledge about art and artists in general, certainly it is lacking in knowledge of sensible art gallery, and visual artist’s working practices. Yes, an artist will not sell work that they are not happy with, that is what keeps the value in their work. That is what a good gallery is actually looking for, a quality product of artistic and cultural value. Not a picture churned out to meet a deadline.
Incidently, most art gallery owners have far more respect for their stable of artists than you do, maybe that is why no self respecting professional artists will work with you.